Season 2 Episode 19 | Jackie Schuld | Redesigning How We Create A Practice

Hey there creatives, this is season two episode 19. You're going to be hearing a conversation

that I had with registered expressive arts therapist and board certified art therapist

and licensed professional counselor, also an author and an artist Jackie Shult and she is going to be

sharing a little bit about her latest book which is called Therapy Private Practice,

creating a private practice that enriches you as a human and therapist and I love her ideas. I felt

like we had a very resonant conversation and she has some really great strategies for designing a

practice that aligns with the therapist as a person and a human and she's really breaking the

mold and I just loved our conversation and found that the way she's designing her practice

to be bold, unique and really inspired. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with

Jackie and myself. 

Thanks for listening to the Creative Psychotherapist podcast. I am your host, Raina Lombardi and

I'm very excited to welcome my next guest, Jackie Shold. And she was recommended to me by a former

guest, Jennifer Lawrence, who was on the show while back. And Jackie is a registered expressive arts

therapist, a board certified registered art therapist and a licensed practicing counselor,

who also happens to be autistic and has ADHD. And she has developed her art therapy private

practice to specialize in late identified autism. 

As a neurodivergent therapist, she's had to reimagine business by tailoring her practice to honor her neurodivergent needs, which runs counter to what is taught in the mental health field where everything is supposed to

be about our clients. She's passionate about this topic because of the norms of the mental health

field that are crushing her fellow therapists. And our humanity is being ripped from us and she

wants to change the mental health field so that it's sustainable and enjoyable for all practicing

therapists and their clients. 

She also recently published a book called Therapy Private Practice,

creating a private practice that enriches your life as a person and a therapist.

Welcome, Jackie. Thank you so much for agreeing to talk with me today.

Thank you for having me. I love the work you do and what you're doing to promote the work we're

doing as therapists and create a therapist at that. So thank you. Yeah, oh, thank you.

When I first started, I was like, who's going to want to listen? 

But over time, it's really nice to hear the feedback and that people feel honored and supported

because when I was listening to podcasts, initially, I couldn't find any that were about the

expressive arts therapies, specific. And I thought, well, that needs to happen. I found a couple and

it was like somebody recorded one episode and then never did anything again. Yeah, yeah.

I think I probably found that one too because that feels familiar.

Yeah. So tell me a little bit about how you structure your practice so that it allows you to serve

your clients in the best way possible while honoring what you need as an individual.

Yes, I think one of the biggest things that has impacted this is acknowledging that my needs change

with time because there was some part of me that thought I need to find this ideal as a therapist,

like the ideal schedule, the ideal policies, the ideal everything and that it would never change.

Like now that I say it, it sounds ridiculous. But that's what my mind was doing. And the reality is

my needs are shifting, my clients needs are shifting. And so it's kind of giving myself permission

to change how I run my business as I change. An example of that would be I recently moved across

the country from Tucson, Arizona to New Jersey. Oh wow. And that meant I needed to close my

Art Therapy Studio in person and take my business online. And you know, I gave myself permission

to do that. But like, hey, I'm thinking and I want to keep doing what I'm doing. 

And guess what means I'll go online. Or another example is I'm currently only seeing clients once a month,

which is not how I normally do things. However, I'm in a period of my life where my mind is just like

above creativity and writing. And I really need to give it the space to pour out. And so I'm finding

basically what I'm doing right now is seeing all my clients in one week and then taking the other

three weeks off for all my creative endeavors. That's really awesome. I don't know any, like I haven't

heard other people doing that. I've heard people like doing that as a temporary thing. Like they have a

book chapter that they have to write or they're writing a book and they've carved out that period,

almost like a mini sabbatical or something from their practice. But that's your regular monthly

schedule all the time. Yes, though I should say I just started it in September. And so we're only in

October. But what it started because I did take a creative sabbatical for the whole month in July.

And that, oh my gosh, the expansion I felt there, it was just incredible. And when I came back,

it was I could notice with such a queuey how much things impacted me that I never noticed before.

And so that's when I really realized, okay, it's time for another change.

I love that you're listening really deeply and intently to what your body is telling you. And

sometimes I think it's really difficult for us to do that when we're in our typical routine.

Because we like come to a homeostasis around it. 

Like, okay, if we're managing this like level of stress, that becomes the norm. And it's not until we give ourself that slowdown, that break that our bodies like, thank you. Gosh, I've been trying to tell you. Yeah, I was so surprised during my creative sabbatical, like a good portion of it was just spent morning. Like, it wasn't all just like, "Lew, joy." It was like, there was suddenly space to feel everything and to think about life and to like,

but it was morning in a really good, healthy way. Like, it was a good thing. I was still in therapy.

But a lot of things for me to talk about my, talk to my therapist about. So, yeah, no, I love that.

I love that you're giving yourself that time. Because I would imagine that, that then allows you to

come back to your clients in a different way. Did you notice a shift in how you were able to hold

space for people after giving yourself that space? I think it's, I, if I had to just like,

pick an answer. It would be no. But the nuance to answer is more that I'm far more excited to see

my clients now than before. I think I was so tired before that it was like kind of like a checklist

thing. Like, okay, get it done, get it done. And now I find in the structure I'm in, like, I'm looking

forward to my clients next week is the week I meet with all my clients. 

And I'm excited to see like what topics they're going to bring up. And it's also a new structure in that, you know, I meet

with them once a month. And then I give them art activities to do every single week that were a part

that's focused on like the issues we're discussing. So, I'm also like so, so excited to see what they've

made. And like, it's, it's going to be really fun. I love that. I, I think it's really important for us

as individuals to honor our own way of doing the work, to find our own way. I know what first it

feels like there's a lot of pressure to kind of conform to some kind of rigid adherence of a model.

And while there may be some value to that for very specific protocols, I find it so limiting and

like soul sucking it for me. Like, I need to have that ability to shift and change and integrate

new information. Do you think differently? And I mean, it sounds like that's what you're doing,

thinking like, okay, I know I'm only meeting with my clients once a month, but that doesn't mean

that I'm not still creating the opportunity for therapeutic insight and development to happen while you're not seeing each other. That you're, you're probably having to take some time to craft whatever homework.

Yeah, you're giving each client to create for three weeks.

Definitely. And I want to acknowledge that when we make shifts in our businesses, like, it doesn't

mean that every client will necessarily come with us. And, and that's okay. I feel like in grad school,

we're taught to like contort ourselves around our clients. And I absolutely want what's best for my

clients. And I acknowledge sometimes that isn't me. Like, and that's okay. Like, when I shifted to

this monthly model, there were one or two clients that, you know, I found what we worked together to

find someone who could provide them the weekly therapy they were wanting and still needed.

And then there were like a bunch of new people that were like, oh my god, I didn't want to do weekly

therapy that I heard you're doing this once a month thing. That's more my pace.

 So it was just interesting to see. Yeah, that like, and yeah, it works out. Like, everyone's always afraid,

like, well, I get clients if I do this, well, I this, well, I that. And like, it does work out with time. Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that because I think that there's real value for other people to hear that it is okay to craft the schedule that you need for your season of life, whatever season that happens to be in. And that there will be people that, you know, it you either retract or you repel, right? And that's okay. It propels some people away. Those weren't your people, right? That wasn't the right fit for the relationship. And that's totally fine. But you're right about fear

kind of getting in the way there. Yeah, I think that's one of the themes I write about most in my book.

It's just how frequently here comes back where you're like, oh, I dealt with you. Why are you back?

But like, at least for me, I'm always always in conversation with fear. It seems.

So, right. Yeah. I kind of view it as like a tallies man where, you know, when it comes around,

it's like, okay, I see you there. I know what you're about. Yeah. This means I'm at the growing edge

of where I'm pushing out even more. And the more I learn to listen to what fear is saying, but not

necessarily follow its guidance. It's usually an opposite action. The better I am for it, right?

But if I listen to fear and follow its guidance, the more constricted and restricted, I feel

personally, but also in my business. Yeah. I like what you're saying about it being at your

growing edge because when I say fear comes back, it's not always the same topic, right? 

Like at the beginning, when I started my private practice, and I was raising my fees to a fee that was significantly

higher than the average in Tucson, I had so much fear around the judgment of other therapists.

Like I was, I mean, and they can be ruthless. My gosh. Absolutely. And now that I've been at that fee

and even higher for at least two years, like I don't care anymore. It doesn't even like cross my mind.

And so it's almost funny to look back at how scared I was. Like, what are they going to think of me? And

now I'm like, well, they can think what they want. I'm confident enough in knowing like what I do

works for me and that I can ethically, not just ethically, I hate that word in some ways because like,

we throw that around as therapists, like what you're doing is an ethical and you know, we do.

Thank you. And we use it as a judgment piece. So what I'm more trying to say is what I'm doing is in

line with my own values. And I'm at peace with that. Yeah. Absolutely. There, I've done a fair amount of

reading on like business development, according to mission and values and the alignment of those things.

And how important that really is because if we're not, if our business isn't aligned with our values,

it just makes it so much harder to operate. It's like you escape a system because you don't agree

with the value system that it's operating in. The last thing you want to do is recreate that same

wheel over. But I see a lot of people doing that because it's known, right? Like that's what we know. 

So we recreate it. When I told, I totally did that with my private practice. Like me too. And so it was one of

the things that encouraged me to write my book is that I was really examining the belief systems

in myself that I was, because once, let me back up here, basically it was like Mother's Day. And

I was thinking about my life and my mother has passed away. And I was thinking about how much I missed her.

And how tough my life was feeling. And I realized like I, I was fully responsible. 

And that, mate, no one was going to save me, but me. And I guess this ties to my mother just in that, like she was

the one person that I, you know, always loved me the way I want to be loved. And so it was just like

this day of contemplation. And I, I really kind of used it as a turning point of like, all right, you

need to be your own mother now. And that encouraged me to start making the changes in my business to take

care of myself. Wow. I love that. I love that you did that. And they sure are able to do that.

There's the part of me that is motherless. Because I lost my mom several years ago, really resonates

with that. There's something I lost both my parents. So I am parentless. And what you're talking about,

it really becomes part of that inner exploration of like who am I now that I don't have these people

that have been there for me my entire life and taking care of me. And they, they were always there.

Right. I could rely on them. And they're like in the back of my mind, I would think, well, you know,

if something ever didn't work out, I could always ask my mom for help. Right. 

Yeah. Now don't have her to ask for help. Yeah. And, um, and that shifts things because it means, okay, we have to be even more responsible for our business because our business is responsible for the earning set

or necessary to take care of ourselves in ways that we need. Which means we have to parent the

business too. Yeah. And when I started, I was at that time, I was single. And so there was also,

and I started my private practice as single. And so there was also this extra weight of like,

this is your livelihood. I had no nest egg. It was just like, you better make this work. And

I'm in many ways. I'm actually really grateful for that. It really just gave me the momentum. 

And now that I'm married, I see in some ways it was easier to be so flexible and so like, let me try

this and this and this because like it would, it didn't impact anyone but me. It was a lot,

you know, it could be like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. So, or it's like now, yeah, where's now I, you

know, I mean, it's a positive thing, but I check in with my husband to be like, hey, what do you think

about this? Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's different in the situations. That pressure though, it's like,

it's there, right? If you've been working through COVID times in your practice, right? 

That was like a wave of big wave of fear. Yeah. That kind of rippled through and people were really anxious and freaking out at least where I am and the people that I talk to in community, you know, feel like every time

something major happens, there's like, ah, this is my business going to be able to handle it and how do

you, how do you create a sense of security? How do you structure that in your business so that when

those kinds of things happen, you, you don't have to worry so much that you know that, okay, I have

a structure here and it's going to work itself out. For me, I set my fees at a level that takes

care of me in multiple ways. So it's not just for the present, like my present budget, it's also for

my retirement and for my vacations and for sick days and for savings, like I'm doing those things

in my fee. So, um, and that's what's allowing me, for instance, to take this risk of moving to a

monthly model. Um, you know, it was like, well, I get enough clients to do this. 

That, and that was a risk that I was willing to take because I had savings in my business that I was like, well, it doesn't

work out. Like, one, I have a little bit of savings and two, I can always go back to like, you know,

meeting weekly. Um, but it's working out. So not problems. That's awesome. Yeah. I, I feel like it would be

wonderful if more of us were embracing this idea that our fee isn't about accommodating other

people's needs. Yeah. Our fee is about really ensuring that our needs are met and that we're in a

stable position. Because I kind of think about it in terms of like, with like attachment theory,

right? If a parent is dysregulated and their child is struggling and they're overwhelmed and

the parent is overwhelmed, the parents ability to really adequately care for and help that child

regulate is impaired because they're, they're not, they haven't taken care of that themselves.

Right. And I, and I feel like that happens in the way our system is, it's like a systemic thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. Like, I don't blame therapists. I get it. Like, it's the fee, not the fees,

but the mental health industry in general pays so low compared to our skill set and the demand. It's

just, yeah, some else. I write a lot, a lot about it. Because it needs to be different. And I think

the mental health field attracts people who are helpers and servers. And so we don't question as much

about the fee or like whatever we're paid. I think when I graduated out of my, I was at an internship

site and they offered me a job and it was going to be $35 per client hour. And this was as an

independent contractor. And like, $35 an hour, someone else might think, like, oh, that's great.

It's like, no, that is only what you get when you meet with that client face to face. Like,

I'm not going to see eight hours of clients a day. Let alone like, that doesn't, that means they

give me absolutely no benefits. And all my taxes get pulled out of that. Like, yeah, I was great.

I was, yeah, I was pissed to say it. I was. I was like, I can't, I did the math. And it was like

equal to something like a salary of like 20,000 a year. It was like so ridiculous.

I agree. Just thank you. Yeah. That like, and I really liked those therapists that were running that

place. And so I feel like again, we end up perpetuating the systems that are harming us. Like,

we as therapists get tired. We don't want to see as many clients. So some people set up

group practices. And then you're essentially taking from other therapists so that you can rest more.

And it's just this self-feeding cycle of burnout. It's, yeah.

Yeah, I agree. I see that a lot. Like, when I first started, I decided to become paneled. And

I took Medicaid. And the reimbursement model here for Medicaid is abhorrent. The fees are gross.

And they haven't been addressed. They, they, I think maybe they just recently did an adjustment.

I'm not on a panel anymore. So I'm not paying attention as much. But, yeah. But it was like,

they hadn't given a raise in 20 years. Like, what other industry doesn't get a raise in 20 years?

Yeah. But somehow that's okay. Yeah. And what other industry is so mentally and emotionally demanding?

Okay. There's other ones. But that's like, we just also don't acknowledge how

difficult our job is. Like, okay, yes, we're physically okay. We're just, well, that's not even true.

Sitting somewhere for eight hours straight is not good for your body. And so like, there's just

a lot. And then to add to it that I'm autistic, I get extra gined from interacting with people. And so

it was like, not only am I dealing with norms in the mental health industry that are abhorrent for

any therapist, then like, I have like extra needs on top of that. 

So it just felt like, maybe use the spectrum that I'm like, on the other end over here. And what they're doing is on this

end, I'm like, oh my god, how do I, there were many times I contemplated leaving the field,

like not being a therapist anymore because it was like, I don't know if I can do this.

Yeah. I think when we like perpetuate the systems, right, if we go out, we say, okay, I'm going to do

my own practice. And I'm taking this insurance. And now I'm going to switch to a group model.

And then you start to try and divvy up the insurance fees. That's when you get people getting paid

$25 an hour as an independent contractor, $35. I mean, I've heard people getting paid 20.

Yeah. Oh, I like sent me the shivers. I'm like, that's, I know, that's like, gosh, that's something

that you could wait tables and make more than that. Like and be stressed at the end of the day.

You know, it's a physically demanding job, but and sometimes it's stressful, you know,

mentally because you're dealing with grumpy people or hungry people, but it's not life or death,

right? It's a, it's a completely different set of circumstances, which make more than

what some of these places are offering. And you still end up, you know, in order to make enough money

on that hamster wheel, when I hear people talking about like, well, it's normal for me to see 35 people

or 38 people in a week. Oh my God. I'm like, that's not normal. That is not normal. 

The 40-hour work week is not meant to be that level of intensity, that level of oneness. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And yet that's what's happening. When I want to be clear in my like, even in my model of working one week a month,

my max is 20 clients in that week. And it's crazy to think there's someone, there are many therapists

out there that are like working double what I do every single week. Every single week. Yeah. Yeah.

I think I don't, I don't have the constitution for that. Especially like the individual work. I like

breaking it up groups and individual kind of helps balance my energy. 

Yeah. But just thinking about it, seeing, you know, five days a week, eight hours a day. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that you and I are discussing like, this isn't the fault of therapists. It's not like, it's no. You know, they're doing what they

can with what's out there. And I think that's why so many of us start a private practice and start

doing other things because that's really the only way to kind of have the freedom and flexibility

to design something that fits your needs and honors them.

To live life on our own terms, right? It's so interesting to me. Like, that's what we're trying to get

our clients to do, right? To step out of their comfort zone, to step out of the broken systems that

are caging them in. Yeah. To construct a life on their own terms, their own values, their own

beliefs, and live in a really aligned way. And yet when therapists start to do that, there's often

some judgment about them like, you know, they're not as good of a therapist because they're,

you know, choosing to do that or their their fees are so much or they're not being part of the

insurance, you know, framework.

 They're for they're contributing to lack of access and all these

things. It's like, wait a minute, why are you blaming the individual? It's a systemic thing that

goes beyond our profession. Right. And like, I'll just speak for myself here, but like, I specialize

in later identified autism. And I have I have time to research and learn more and to like, I do so

much writing and so many things related to this topic that I would not have time for if I was or

even the energy for forget time. Like, if you're seeing for me, if I'm seeing more than five clients a day,

it actually is probably more like four clients a day. I have very little capacity for anything mental

or emotional afterwards. I'm just kind of that, yeah, I'm not as much used to myself.

So, I think I'm a far more educated and prepared and happy therapist. Like for my clients, like,

so yeah, I argue that I think like when someone's like, oh, I need to find a therapist,

you know, one I'm always like, okay, what are you looking for? And then make sure you find someone

that that is their topic. Like another thing that happens with the way this system is is that

there's so many therapists that are generalists. And that's because a lot of the mental health

organizations are just, you know, churning people through like, oh, see this person, oh, see this

person, you don't really get a choice. And so like, I see why in some ways that's necessary. 

But then you have someone who knows surface level information about things, and that's why like so many

autistics have horrible experiences in therapy because many, we're not really educated about it

in grad school. And we're not educated about most conditions with any depth in graduate school.

I mean, how could we, when there's, you know, we're covering the wide spectrum, I get it. And so like,

a lot of education is up to us once we graduate. And there has to be time for that.

You're right. I agree. There's something to be said about not only time for that

research and education, but also time for client-specific research, right? Like your client shares

with you, their affinity for a certain genre of something, whether that be music, writing,

a film, whatever. Yeah. If you're really burned out, you're not going to have the energy to

make an effort to investigate that, listen to it, read it, view it, whatever, so that you can

better relate to their experience. Because if they're sharing that information with you,

that's a rich source of material for you to better understand them. But if you don't have that time,

it's a miss opportunity. Right? Like I have clients who will tell me like, oh, I'm reading this book,

but I'm not sure about some things. I will go and read that book. 

Because again, like I want to connect and I find it interesting, it's my special interest topic. Or even like I've had a client say, I watched this series, it meant so much to my life. And I went and watched that series, even though

it was not my thing. Because like you're saying, I really want to understand them and relate,

not just really, more like connect on the level. Yeah. Right. Well, you're better able to understand their symbolic language. I think to a certain degree, right? Because I forget where art therapists, or actually I shouldn't make assumptions about you being an art therapist, but that we are creative. 

Okay. It's just fun to have someone throw out symbolic language. I was like, oh yeah, forgot. We speak the same language. Right. But if we listen to the music that they're listening to and they're saying this really,

this song is really important to me. And there's just something about it. I feel like really captures

this, right? When we listen to it, we're now going to be more queued up to hear certain things to

understand even the, just the felt sense of the sound quality, right? What is that deliver? And

how they're experiencing the world. That's really important. But you can't do that in a burn and

turn. Yeah. You saying that reminds me, sometimes one of the art assignments I'll give clients is to

create a playlist that captures, you know, a specific topic in their life. 

And so yes, of course, I'm like, I'm going to listen to it when they're done with it. So yeah, I do. When there's

space and time on our side, it can, I can have that feeling of excitement and enthusiasm. But when

I'm overloaded, it switches to a feeling of a to-do list. And like, oh my god, another thing on my plate.

Yeah. So for therapists that feel like, okay, I have a practice and I'm on the dread mill.

And I'm doing it. But I know that I don't have it set up the way it would feed me.

Where would you recommend they start? Is there like a starting kind of expiration or creative

intervention that you would recommend for them to kind of start to figure out what kind of changes

they could make? When you said creative intervention, I wish I had one. I was like, that's cool. But

it's much more straightforward. I think it's starting with for envisioning for not envisioning.

Thinking for where you're at right now, what would you prefer your client case load to look like?

Meaning how many clients a day do you want to be seeing? And I'm assuming most people will see

clients every week. I know they're not all like me.

So we'll stick with that structure. But once you know that, then you can start to make more decisions about your fee. Because the fee is really what's going to sustain you to make the changes you want to make. And so that's also where I started was, I think originally I was shifting down to four clients a day, five days a week. And so I was like,

okay, I need my fee to be fixed. And I've adjusted my fee over time based on the changes I'm wanting to

make. So for example, right now, my fee is 250 per the hour that I need with clients. And that's enough.

Seem 20 clients a month that it meets my needs. Wonderful. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. A lot of

people are reluctant to share their fees. And I think that that's encouraging.

 Yeah. It's actually down from what it was when I saw people in studio. I was at that time that was 300. But I just,

what I'm doing now, I don't need as much money since my writing and my other creative endeavors are

making money. So I was like, okay, I think I might lower it a little right now. So that's also the thing.

I can be flexible to go either way. I love that you're finding a way to balance your artist identity

and your therapist identity. Yeah. By the way, you're structuring your therapy business. Because if you

lived by that traditional model, you just wouldn't have the energy, space, time, capacity to create

other things that other people are interested in consuming because they're finding them valuable. 

And that brings in earnings in that area. Yeah. In that area of my life was never intended to make money. That

wasn't my drive. I just love creating. I love writing. I love painting. I love all sorts of things. And I

wanted time for that. And ironically, it's all my writing now that brings me every single client.

I never would have thought that. So. Wow. Are you just focusing on blogging on your website?

I no longer host my blog on my website. It's on medium. Because another therapist suggested I try

medium just to reach a wider audience. And I don't know why, but medium has so many neurodivergent readers.

And it was like, they found me and I found them. And I was like, dang. 

And I say that because I also write about other topics like therapy, private practice or this and that. And like nobody reads those. I don't think there's a lot of therapists on there. But anything I write related to autism gets

like a lot of views. So some of it was just luck, I guess. But anyway, it's pointing to now all of my

clients now say like they found me through medium. And that's also wonderful because if they've found

me through my writing, they know my style. They know how I think, how I work on it. And so I'm also

finding a client that align with me like my personality. It's so much better because I'm really big on

a kind of a screening process for both of us. Us being the client and I like, are we going to be a good

fit? It's, you know, they're putting investing a lot of money. 

I want to meet them where they're at and be, yeah, a good fit. So I'm turning away far less people now since it's like we automatically kind of die with each other. That's beautiful. I think that's really valuable to because people ask like does blogging really make a difference? Is that really going to impact? Do I need to do that? That feels

like a lot of effort and work. And I think for some people, you know, maybe blogging isn't the thing.

Maybe there's another way that you're able to use your voice and get your message out there.

But if you love writing, I think like what you're saying, it's so true. You're giving people an

opportunity to already know you develop like an affinity for you to trust you, to see you as

the person that they specifically want and believe will be best able to help them with their unique

needs and circumstances. That's powerful. I think that also allows you to command a higher fee because

people are committed. They've already developed a relationship with me. 

Yeah. And I like to what you're saying at the beginning about me liking writing because I think some people, you know, hear about me finding clients through medium and they're like, oh my god, I must write too, even though they don't like writing. And I'm like, oh my god, don't do it. Don't do it because I write multiple essays a day

because it's fun. And I pair all my essays with art. And like, no, it's my autistic like special interest.

And so like most people cannot and will not operate at that level. And so I think that's also part of

why I'm so successful is I'm releasing one to two essays every day. I would never encourage someone

else to do that if they don't want to. Like, they don't have that natural drive. 

So what I talk about in my book is finding something that aligns with who you are. Like some people are great at little

TikTok videos and others. It's more like podcasts. It's, but it's finding something that you enjoy doing

so that it makes it sustainable for you and where you're really like cultivating an audience in that

area. Like, yes, I'm sure I'm missing all the YouTube people and I'm missing all the podcasters,

but like or podcast listeners, but that's not me. You know, I want people who align with me. And me

is most appropriately showed. Showed. Anyway, see, this is what I mean. I write far better than I speak.

So anyway, no, I think that's lovely. And I, I agree. When I work with people on marketing,

relating to their private practice, that's what we talk about is like, you don't have to do all of

the things, but pick something that you enjoy doing. If you don't like in person networking, and that's not

your jam, yeah, don't force yourself to do it. You don't have to. Yeah. If you love writing, you can make

that like how you connect or perhaps you really enjoy speaking. Maybe you don't like the mingling

piece of networking, but you really like speaking and educating people about your niche or specialty or

maybe the population you best serve, that's an opportunity. It doesn't, you don't have to do all of the

things unless you want to do all of the things. I'm a nerd and I like a lot of different things. 

And I and I get bored too easily. So I constantly have to be switching it up by doing a little writing. Yeah,

speaking. I like networking. It's, it's, it's finding what works for you. But the last thing you want to do

is like put something on your to-do list. It's going to feel like exhausting. Yeah. And I do want to add,

there is yes, a level though of fundamentals, meaning like have a good website. Like you don't

have to pay money for it. I made my own. Like, I'm not so good. Doesn't mean like, but meaning like where it

showcases you and what you do to distinguish you from other therapists. And before people were

finding me on medium, many, many, many commented about my website and how much it resonated with them.

And so no matter how, like no matter what way people find out about me, there of course,

going to go to my website. And that needs to be on point. There's like, then have them reach out to me.

Yeah, no, that makes sense. In your book, do you offer any guidance for folks of like how to

overcome and work with their fear about implementing these kind of big changes in their system? Because

you know, I love what you're talking about. And I really believe all the things that you're doing

are incredibly valuable. And I think inspired. And that we we should be working towards that as a

profession because then we're modeling that for our clients too. We're because we're setting boundaries

and creating structure in our life in a way that is feeding us and nurturing for us so that we can

be there for clients and our people in our life, right? 

And ourself. Right. And when I raised my fees, because the first time I raised my fees, it was a big jump that that was like the big shift ever since then, it's been more subtle checks. And that it was so hard to have those conversations with clients because of like the fear in me. But working through those fears and really examining my own

beliefs around around money and this and that made me such a better therapist. Like it meant I could

then go deep on those topics with my clients. So when money came up for and well, so I had one

client that when I raised my fee, she was automatically like, yeah, I can do that. And normally, you know,

you'd be like, cool and move on. But then I like paused because I knew her. I was like, do you think

that quick decision mirrors ways you make decisions in other parts of your life? 

Because I knew she likely could not afford my new fee. And so it was a chance to like, I was no longer scared to go to those deep places about money. Or I had other clients that were like, wow, they also own their own business.

And they're like, I've been wanting to raise fees, but scared. And so like, it's really weird

watching you do it and having like a model. So it's just it's so cool. It just reverberates to your

clients in many ways. Yeah. So do you make some recommendations? Oh, sorry. Yeah. That's okay.

After your first question. That's all right. Yeah. I was looking back through my table of contents.

Because I have a whole section with like three, six, eight chapters, eight, well, when I say chapters,

each chapter is an essay. So there are like two to three pages. I'm an autistic. Like, give me my

information quick. So one section is all on getting your fees and money in order. So it's all about like

one of my chapters is called high fees, mean you're a capitalist. I know someone said that to be.

Yeah. No. But it was got sucked. But it was a good chance for me to sit with that and really

examine why that hurt so much. And then write a whole essay about how that isn't true. And how to

respond if someone says that. Because a lot of times it's the little it's us saying that to ourselves.

Right. I think that only hurts so much because there was part of me that was

worried. That's what I was doing. And so I have that section all on money. And then I have,

I think one of my favorite sections though is called thought patterns that impact you.

So it's like looking at like the martybum mentality we often have. Like I must serve everyone. And I

must help everyone. And you know, setting our fees that way, setting when we're available that way.

Like I know some therapists that see clients at night because they're like, well that's the only time

my clients are free. And like that's fine if you like working at night. But if that gets in the way

of your own energy schedule or your family, whatever, then it doesn't, then it doesn't work for you.

So I guess that's really at the heart of my book. My book isn't about here's the one right way

to do everything. My book is more about how do you discern what's right for you? And how do you

acknowledge all the shit getting in the way of that? Like, like kind of like the capitalist thing. Like,

oh, sorry, this got stuck in my thoughts there.

So I'm going to be like, that's okay. Yeah, no, what I really hear you saying is like,

you're not writing a prescriptive approach to guide people of like, this is what you need to do.

It's more about how do you check in with yourself to discover what is it that you uniquely need?

And how do you overcome the limiting barriers, beliefs and conditioning that might be influencing

your ability to get there? That's kind of what I was hearing you say. Thank you. You're welcome.

I'm trying to be open with my own experiences, like sharing my fees, like that when I started my private

practice, my sliding scale went as low as $35, $40. And like, you know, going and then eventually

all of my clients were at $300 for per session. And kind of showing how I got there and all of the

stuff that came up for me. So it's not just like, hey, it's all rosy. It's like, hey, this is the reality.

And I I wanted to be that open because I couldn't really find other people talking about that. And

like, that's what I wanted. I wanted to know what is it really like. Don't give me like,

that yeah, you can do it. And it's all great. Like, that's not relatable to me.

What's not accurate either? Yeah. It's hard. There's like, there are some wonderful moments and aspects.

I certainly would never I would I would really try hard to never go back to working for a corporation

or a nonprofit organization. I prefer to work for myself and to be able to make autonomous

decisions about when I take time off. And not have to like answer to somebody else on how I structure

my life, the idea that I have to get permission from somebody who I'm providing a service for.

In order to take vacation, doesn't make sense to me. I just that does not connect on so many levels.

So, but there are times where I'm like, okay, this has been really a tough season. I've gotten through it.

But it was really tough. It was really stressful. And it's not, you know, so it's not all like roses and

sunshine. Yeah. So when it isn't a tough period, I think about how much harder it would be if I wasn't

in private practice. You know, like when I moved across the country, like, guess that was challenging

for many different reasons. But the fact that I ran my own practice, I do still want to get through.

And for me being autistic, change in transitions are really just difficult and energy draining.

And so that was why I took one of the reasons I took the creative sabbatical. I didn't plan

that I didn't dance. It was just that once I got here, I was like, oh my god, like I didn't know I'd

be this tired. I was like, wow, I was like, I really just every bone in my body was just like rest.

And that I could then decide to do that. I felt like the luckiest person on the planet,

quite frankly. Like every day I woke up, I was like, I'm so lucky.

And what a gift. Right? It was so weird. I mean, I don't think I've not worked for a month since,

or like been an, you know, it's just one's a lot of time I took a whole month off.

Before I was 16, it was like, yeah, it was just, anyway, sorry, I could go off. I'm thinking about that question for myself. Like, when is the last time I took an entire month off? Right, that you weren't intentionally doing something.

But it was just a month of rest. Like, yeah, I've taken a month to go study somewhere,

or like this or that. But a month where you're like, nope, I'm not doing anything.

Yeah, no, that's been a really long time. I've taken, you know, a couple weeks here and there.

I did take a lot of time off for grief, which I kind of felt the same way at that time. I was like,

there would be no way I would get fired. I wouldn't have a job. If I didn't, you know, if I was

working somewhere else because of how much time I took off that that year, that whole year was

a lot of time off in different bits and spurts for different reasons. 

But that was a gift, right? The gift to having, having a practice and doing this work on my own terms

gave, afforded me. Yeah. And I see it how it is impacting other people who are going through that

life transition and they're in a place and how hard it is. Yeah. And them. Yeah. Yeah.

I know. I remember when my mom died, I was working somewhere and I had three days of grief leave.

Look, what's that? Yeah. For real. It was the weirdest thing to go back to work after three days.

I was like, what? Like, come on. I like, I was in such a like dissociative state at three days.

After I know, right? Like, I don't even remember that time period. It was such,

yeah, such grief that I, yeah. Yeah. That's gross. That came up with that idea.

Clearly does not have any empathy or like, doesn't do feelings. I know. Yeah.

Right. Like, yeah, you need more than three days to be human again, to go back to, especially as a

therapist, when we're listening to other people and what other people are going through. And like

in that time, what other people are going through from our perspective, when you've just your whole

life has just feel like it's turned upside down and crushed. Like, it's very difficult to empathize.

It's very difficult because it doesn't, what other people are saying just doesn't seem significant.

That's so true. Like, my mom had cancer and so as she was dying, I wasn't a counselor at the time.

But I remember like, people would complain about things and I was literally like, shut the fuck up.

Like, you don't know pain. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Mine too. It was, it's not easy, right? 

Like, that whole, the whole process, right? Because it starts before. Yeah. And yeah, it's enduring. And

as a therapist, right, we want to be empathic and like, I needed, I needed the time that I took off

when I took it off. And sometimes I was like, all right, I went back to work, but I was like,

nope, I need more time. I'm taking more days because I need more time in order to be able to be empathic.

Yeah. Right. So I feel like I could talk to you forever, Jackie.

Thank you. But I know we were on a time schedule. And, but I do want listeners to be able to find you

and to be able to find your book because I feel like it is a valuable resource for others who want

to create a practice on their terms so that it serves them and their clients equally.

Where can they find more information about you and your book?

For me, it's just my website, which is my name, jacquishill.com. Try to keep it simple.

And on there, I talk about all my books. I have a section there. This book is my most recent book. And so

it's, and all my books are on Amazon. So that's, that's where you can buy them. So

yeah, all right. And is your blog that's on medium connected to your website? Or is that a different?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So like if you click on the blog on my website, it'll be like, I've moved to medium.

So they can get there that way too. Awesome. And I do have a ton of essays about private practice on my

medium. So that that's another way if you aren't into buying books, you can also read essays.

Short short short little essays. They're like three minute reads.

That's perfect. Yeah. Well, I have really enjoyed talking with you today. Thank you for being

an inspiration for us to be creative in the way we design our practices and and sharing how

you're doing things differently. I really appreciate your time. 

This will thank you for giving me the chance to talk about it. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Creative Psychotherapist Podcast. I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Jackie Shold and myself.

If you're in private practice and you're trying to figure out a way to make it work for you,

designed for you, I think Jackie's book would be a great resource. She's certainly figuring out how to

design a practice that really breaks the mold of what we might typically see or think about

in the way a practice would look like and operate. And I find that really inspiring because

I think if we're building this business, it really should work for us. We shouldn't be working for it.

And if you enjoyed this episode and any of the other episodes and you haven't already,

please do rate, subscribe, give us feedback on the show so that we can continue to grow our audience

and listenership and improve the work that we're providing to you. Again, thanks so much for listening

and take care everybody.